divonneretribution said: it might be most effective to just split them up by skirt/pants/dress/shirt

http://gothiccharmschool.tumblr.com/post/171188695430

divonneretribution said: it might be most effective to just split them up by skirt/pants/dress/shirt etc rather than apply a broad gender label

That is a good point! But I kinda want to keep the plus size section its own thing, so plus size folks don’t have to check every section. Hmmm. I will think about this.

spookyloop said: This reminded me of something that I was thinking of earlier. Someone asked me about transwomen in the goth community and I made a point about the androgyny and that the freedom of unconventional gender expression is something goth took with it from punk. But then I realised that they are actually the opposites. Punk women were very much about dressing and acting like stereotypical punk men, swearing, being loud and opinionated, open about sex, wearing shirts & trousers. Then you have the goths, where men are wearing corsets, skirts and make-up and everything frilly that was masculine a few centuries ago but not so much anymore. It was such an obvious thing to realise but I had never thought about it before. I thought it was kind of an interesting thing: such a similarity between the two subcultures but at the different ends of the gender spectrum.

It’s not something I’d really pondered before, but you’re absolutely right, the subcultures are at completely different ends of the gender spectrum!

And now I have some very vague thoughts about how much misogyny - overt and unspoken - there was (and still is, dammit) in both subcultures, and no matter how the women dressed or acted, they were (are, dammit) still perceived as objects. Sex objects, objects there to prop up the feelings and egos of the men in the subcultures, and so on.

That’s not to say that every guy in either of the subcultures is like that, and from my sometimes cranky eldergoth view, things have gotten better. Not perfect, and sometimes not even great, but slightly better than things were. Which sometimes gives me hope, but just as frequently makes me angry.

(Auntie Jilli’s thoughts about gender roles in subcultures, brought to you by sleep deprivation and too much caffeine for the day.)